74Formula233

Yeh, I meant to reply to Bob's post before, but didn't have time....

You and Bob bring up a good point about the mesh size, and a very valid one......so, even with the best of intents in gear design, there are faults.

__________________

PG

"Even tho Commercials are allowed to keep 14", they don't necessarily.......most opt to keep fishing for the larger fish to meet their quotas, as they bring higher $$ at the market than the 14" fish."

Does this mean they will throw back smaller fish for larger ones?

Rec guys can not cull-- why should the Com guys be allowed to.

74Formula233

That's exactly what it means, but it does not mean they "cull" (at least not what I have heard).

They simply are just not keeping fish of a certain legal size from the get-go, whatever they decide their personal minimum size will be. That's perfectly legal, just as it is for Rec guys.

(On that note, I honestly am not even sure if culling is ILLEGAL in RI like it is in CT......it may be legal here, as long as you are not in possession of more than your limit at any given time....anyone know the truth on this in RI?? I don't cull so I honestly don't even know LOL).

__________________

Scup

Form members, have some mercy on me, I am in the commercial family. The only time I would keep a even 16" fluke, much less a 14" fluke, is if I deep hooked it and its bleeding all over the place. Since its likely going die, I feel it should count toward my limit. But then again, since I fish with hook and line, I usually have the choice of what lives and dies. Not so for draggers! It is not so much that the commercial guys, in general, are hard hearted, it is the destructive techniques of fishing that they are given a blessing to use. Not only do trawl techniques directly destroy our ground fisheries but they flatten the bottom and destroy the fragile habitat needed by fish fry. What our regulators do not seem to understand is that they are micro-managing our environment to its destruction. Simply put, there are more people living in the US today than ever before. People like to eat fish! The demand for fish now greatly exceeds its supply. With the exception of catfish and mussels, I never gave a hoot for any of the farm raised stuff. Would it not stand to reason, if we have a limited supply of anything, no method should be allowed to harvest it that is wasteful. Can't our regulators figure out that a trail of dead fish in a wake is wasteful. This does not end with the otter trawl either. I own gill net! What a mess that can make. There are so many rat bass around, no matter where you set it some are going get nailed. Even checking it within eight hours of setting it, is no guarantee that I will not have to flip some bass over the side, dead or alive. The recreational anglers have one of the lowest mortality rates of fish returned to the sea because they use hook and line. Only fish pots and traps have a lower mortality rate but the difference you can stick in your eye. What would happen if draggers would be outlawed. The commercial guys are not going to go away. They will simply fish with whatever methods are permitted. At first, there will be a severe drop in landings and many, knowing only of the wasteful methods, will go under (that is good). The stocks will rebound because there will be less pressure placed on them (that is good too). The price of fish will skyrocket because the demand will now really outstrip the supply (that is also good for the commercial guy, we want higher prices) and finally the demand by the public for fish will also be reduced since no one wants to pay an arm a leg for fish. This is also good because less of a demand means less stress placed on fisheries. With time, our stocks will rebound, and the commercial sector will simply get better at using non wasteful techniques, and having more fish around will benefit everyone, and that would be the best thing of all that could happen.

Bob & Mag

Scup,
You make some great points. If only the regulators could see past their nose.
If the method used doesn't discriminate to specie and size, as hook and line does,
I for one, would not feel a bit upset at there complete ban.
As you say you can select what you keep/release from hook and line, pots and traps and I've no problem with them and would hope that a shortfall in commercial catch(without trawls)would make prices skyrocket.
This seems like the old days when market hunting was coming to an end.
I enjoy these discussions where we can find common ground that would benefit the majority of us.

__________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of food, electricity, gas, and oil, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

Smoke free 4 Months!

Possum

Very well put Scup, I could not agree more. It is not the commercial fishery itself, it is the techniques used for the harvest. Combine the techniques with the advanced electronics available today, and bada-bing, here we are.

The ASFMC are directly to blame for this, in my opinion, as they do nothing to preserve the resource on any front. The quota reductions do not stop the environmental decimation, nor deplete the bycatch mortality rates.

__________________

John_Madison CT

Scup's posts are dead right. The draggers are desimating the fishery with the killing of short fluke and culling of others. The issue of bottom destruction is another matter but equally important.

One thing I don't see discussed enough is how the regulators measure the rec. fluke #'s. This is very important but hardly addressed. IMO, they have no freakin' idea what's caught by the rec anglers. It's a guess, no better. Spot ramp checks with extrapolation to the # of saltwater anglers is simply ridiculous. I've fluke fished for a long time and have never been asked. Their data is flawed. Please let me repeat that, their data is flawed. How can you go about reducing our quota when you really have no idea what is really caught.

I am of the opinion that commerical draggers catch 95% of the fluke harvested. Their nets kill everything in their path, and this includes other fish. They can cut back our #'s, but their will be no effect until they address the dragger issue. To me this is very clear, fisheries management has their heads up their arses.

Bob & Mag

Those old enough to remember the eight ball you'd ask questions and turn it over and it would give an answer....


Perhaps this is the way they count the rec. catch. Would work just as well!
I'm really coming to the point that it's time for the draggers to go the way of the market hunters before the fish become the next passenger pigeon.

__________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of food, electricity, gas, and oil, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

Smoke free 4 Months!

Scup

John,

Our DEP does not have their head up their asses. They know exactly what they are doing. Their main purpose is to protect the existing commercial sector. If this is not obvious to you then I suggest someone else just might have their head up their ass. I mean no disrespect to you, but do not look at their charter (which reads fine), or even listen to them, but instead watch the laws and regulations they pass. Did you ever wonder why there is a moratorium on lobster and fin fish licenses. They will tell you it is to protect our resources. If you believe that story then you probably believe in Santa Claus. They are protecting the existing commercial sector by slamming the door in everyone's face but the existing elite. What about the endorsement letters, even if one manages to get a license it will do you no good without an assortment of endorsement letters, again the door slams in the face of new entries. What happened when many of the good old boys who fish offshore for scup found themselves in a bind because they never qualified for a scup endorsement letter. Well the DEP simply bent the rules slightly, they do not need them. While the DEP will never admit it, everything they do seems to protect the commercial sector and not the environment. How come lobstermen can keep 10 blackfish caught in lobster pots. You guessed it, they got caught up in not being able to qualify for a finfish license. Years ago, when the lobstering was great, they never bothered to get a finfish license. Then the moratorium came along so they were out of luck. Well not really, the DEP decided to give them an out and passed the ten blackfish law. Right now, only the best lobster men are making it, and if they were not allowed to keep their ten blackfish, that seemly small difference could mean many would fold. For the first time that I can ever recall, last fall when fishing at Latimer's reef, there were no lobster pots there! Just about everything that the DEP regulates is in trouble and they know it. The recreational sector is to be appeased in order to keep them under control. They threw you a bone in hands off on stripers, but can you think of anything else have they given to you?

The thing I find the most amusing is the low commercial fluke quota assigned to Connecticut. The quota was established by averaging ten years of landings on the Eastern Seaboard States. Connecticut did have a minimum length requirement for fluke. Hence, the Connecticut commercial sector maintained that because they were the good guys, they are being penalized because neighboring states would allow smaller fish to be landed hence their overall landings would be greater than in Connecticut. The real story is when a Connecticut based dragger made a big haul, his catch would be worth more if landed in Rhode Island since they would not have to toss undersized fluke over the side. So guess where they landed their fish!

Bob & Mag

An interesting article on fluke that I found....
Regulators make fluke anglers very anxious | APP.com | Asbury Park Press

__________________
Due to recent budget cuts and the rising cost of food, electricity, gas, and oil, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off.

Smoke free 4 Months!