Ct Fluke regs Recreational vs. Commercial; Logical? - Page 4

tunaless · 03-08-2008, 04:29 PM

To give the reasoning on why there is a disparity (and this is the untechnical version) is that when they set the size limits back in the day (this is the Ny version as I understand it thru a 70 yr commercial fluker.... aka my dad) the State set the commercial size at 14 inches. It then became a Law. Whereas the recreational size is a XXX(not showing much intelligence), which can be adjusted each year. A LAW, needs the state legislators to vote on it (I think 2/3rds vote), and overturn it.... I have no clue if the 14 inch law has been brought before the state in the last 10 yrs.....

Anyone with some law background verify this gibberish I'm spouting????

Fordam grad school is not looking to strong after my reply if they passed me.

Also flame away if this is B.S as I'll have some ammo to rag on my dad.

Scup · 03-08-2008, 07:01 PM

I am commercial, and I do not know why it is that way. Your Dad could be right, but some fish have the same size limit for commercial or recreational fishermen such as togs, winter flounder, or cod fish. For bluefish, there is no recreational size limit but 9 inch commercial limit so it could go the other way too (unless they change it again.) I had a commercial license before many of the size limits came into play yet there seems to be no reason why some fish track one way for recreational and different for commercial. Some size limits also appear to be stupid such as for cod fish, since who catches cod fish in Connecticut waters anymore. Get caught with a cod under 22 inches that you caught off Block Island in Connecticut waters and you are in trouble. My guess would be since draggers have little control of fish that get into the cod end of their nets that die (even little guys get piled up and die with reduced mesh sized nets to some extent) so why toss dead fluke over the side? Anything tossed over the side does not count toward a quota and does not get recorded in log books. If you kill it, then why not have it count toward your quota. There is a market for small fluke. Instead of guessing about the reason, if one really wants to know, just draft a letter and send it out to the DEP asking them why? It might take a couple of months before you get your reply, but the DEP will likely carefully consider the inquiry and respond to a reasonably written letter. Just be honest and sincere, no swearing or ranting, make your point, and see what they come up with. Probably they will provide a reason as to why, which will make sense and, of course, will be a response that no one will like.

CaptDom · 03-08-2008, 07:59 PM

Not to sure about your dads reasoning as to the laws and such in NY, but the same 14 inch limit is estabilished in many other states to fall in line with the federal size restriction mandated in § 648.103.... but I do know that anyone fishing in federal waters for any fishery(including fluke), has to report by law what they discard, or in charter instances what is C&R. Whether guys falsify this or not on the VTR(vessel trip report) is unknown to me. I am required to fill VTR reports for every charter, and every commercial trip I run. The Recreational side reports fish numbers retained and fish numbers released, the Commercial side reports in pounds what is caught and what is discarded....

The discarded fish do not get counted in the quota, which is what they can retain and sell on a daily, trip, or yearly total. They do however count the discards in the mortality data, and use these VTRs as they put it "for the conservation and management of marine fishery resources in accordance with the Magnuison-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act"

Scup, I agree with your sentiments that the recreational angler will still be out there fishing, and I think they will continue to patronize the charter boats that develop multispecies trips and adapt to comport themselves in a professional and responsible way to bring the enjoyment of fishing on a boat with those that cannot oir will not run one themselves(due to a myriad of reasons)

The EEZ zone exists 3 miles from closest shore point, so most commercial boats are fishing in these waters and thus follow federal regulations. This why I think the 14" size is used, not the old law arguement in NY that was used. Go ahead and run that by your dad, see what he thinks?

There are very few commercial boats I know of these days which fish or transit even, exclusively in state waters. The federal zones are regulated in the CFRs(code of federal regulations, sorry I didn't explain that sooner in this post) and are mandated under title 50. The Sustainable Fisheries Division administers the federal fisheries management program for the Northeast Region under authority specified in the Magnuson-Stevens Fishery Conservation and Management Act. While the NOAA Fisheries Service may independently enact management measures, most management measures are developed through a participatory process conducted by either the New England Fishery Management Council or the Mid-Atlantic Fishery Management Council. Council actions are reviewed by the Secretary of Commerce, and implemented if found consistent with all legal requirements. This holds true for all regulated species that are harvested in the EEZ coastwide....

Hope this sheds some light on the workings of the science and legalities at work. There is an awful lot of information to digest in the links provided.

tunaless · 03-08-2008, 08:23 PM

Capt,

I agree the size was set to fall in line with the fed regs, but my question is, Has the 14 inch federal commercial fluke size limit of 14 inches come up for any review or vote, since it was originally enacted?

BTW, it will be another summer of fun as we are pinhooking in montauk (said 14 inch commercial size applies) in the middle of the rec fleet. IT is like wearing fur to a peta convention. The ugly truth last year, were private guys were not even remotely following the rules. fillet and release was rampant, especially in the back bays. We'd be pounding the 14-17 inch fish(commercial legal), and guys were doing the same, except they were recs. The problem is that the guys it really hurts are the party/charter, who would be outed in a minute if they took a short fish.....

CaptDom · 03-08-2008, 08:52 PM

[quote=tunaless;45556]Capt,

I agree the size was set to fall in line with the fed regs, but my question is, Has the 14 inch federal commercial fluke size limit of 14 inches come up for any review or vote, since it was originally enacted?

Yes as I understand it. States constantly petition to have changes made to their own allowances, comm along with rec. are reviewed yearly in some instances

Here is just one example, from one year: Fisheries of the Northeastern United States; Summer Flounder, Scup, and Black Sea Bass Fisheries| Federal Register Environmental Documents | USEPA

This is a very long read, but will answer your questions better than I can. The entire fishery, both recreational and commercial, is dealt with yearly by these commissions and agencies that are obviously hated by both sides of the coin because their data is so flawed.

The federal recreational size limit used to be right in line with the federal, like 15 inches in the late 1990's. There are many years at the bottom if you feel like reading anymore on this subject( I know I wouldn't)

They explain in that above link why they began increasing the size limits and bag limits, as they felt it was the only way to restrict the rec sector and control the harvest to be in line with the allocated TAC.(total allowable catch)

The commercial sector plain and simply put has much easier data to disseminate and understand, due to the VTrs I mentione dabove. Yes there are many flaws and issues, but it is what we have been bdealing with, and will continue to do so.

The problem of the poaching you describe exists everywhere, and is the real reason we are in such a sorry state of affairs. The comms are monitored and penalized heavily and with supreme auhtority and swiftness, while the recreational side is virtually unchecked. The commercial operators look for better, more efficient methods to fish with, reducing bycatch when possible, and fishing as quickly and efficiently as possible for obvious economic reasons(read fuel fiasco). It just isn't likely for a dragger to go around indiscriminately killing evrything in its path, nor is it even close to the reality of the issue.

The only guys who even target the 14 inch size are the inshore pinhookers, minimal harvest in the overall TAC given the comm side yearly. Peanuts even, and therefore not a real big issue as many recs would think. There is a alot more money paid for jumbos than tiny 14 inch fish as I am sure you know(most commercial catches are graded by size and catch method), and thus the real heavy hitting comm operations, not the minority pin hookers only target the big ones....

BTW, do you guys(scup and tunaless) fish in commercial waters? I take by your comments(especially about the discards not being reported) that you guys do not posess the federal permits allowing you to commercially fish in the EEZ for flounder...but maybe I am wrong

Effort needs to be curtailed to even have a chance to get to the numbers the ASMFC has mandated through the processes, and it is being felt on both sides, but moreso on the comm side.....Lets face it, it is supposed to be a sport, while these comms you want out of the fishery are making a living....just playing devils advocate here....

CaptDom · 03-08-2008, 09:14 PM

I do not agree with many comments made here in this post obviously. I have seen the catches, and talked with many of the comm draggers you guys want to blame so quickly....the stocks of fluke are not in the horrible state some would have you believe, especially the NMFS. I catch tons of these animals of all sizes, more than i ever used to of late. Its the regs that are screwed up, and the data collection they use which is the real problem. Human nature dictates we look for a scapegoat when we are personally restricted in any way...hell this country was founded on freedoms, and it touches everyone of us to our core when we get mandated what we must do....I am guilty of this as are all, but I think there is a broad gap in the understanding of the fisheries management processes by the general recreational sector. Just as I feel the recreational sector has no real efforts from the masses to correct this. The voice of the rec is a tiny little whisper in terms of presence and actions at the various levels of management and public comment portals.

It is this same reason I feel a saltwater license would benefit the recreational sector more than they could ever realize, in that it would put real dollar figures into the mix to show the impact and need for better representation at every level, and a bigger slice of the pie. It is all too easy to ignore a non vocal, non counted, non represented user group at the political and governmental agencies which decide these issues that affect us all.......

A prime example of the ignorance of most recs(*no offense meant*) is the predominant push to make the striper a gamefish. The recs are almost solelyresponsible for the new troubles facing the striper. If they shut off commercial effort on this fish, the 73% plus mortality yearly caused by the recreational sector will hurt the stocks even further, especially when you factor in all the recs poaching these fish and therefore not part of the count.

No user group should ever be given 100% access to a resource, period. It is a resource everyone should get a fair share of, as it is a coastwide fish, just like most of the "game" species we target as recreational anglers.

Sorry to hijack it a bit there, but felt the need to correlate some thoughts as to the beliefs commonly held by most recs these days.

The numbers might actually scare the chit out of you guys if you saw the TAC percentages,and the actual reported deaths caused by the recreational guys in many fisheries....

In regards to the almighty fluke, this is the single most effort yearly of any other fishery recreationally in the Atlantic states regions. It is a highly pursued creature, and yet it is no way shape or form near collapse, quite the contrary. However, those of you withe the sentiment, I only kill a few daily, times that by the number of others recreationally targetting them on the same day, and that catch daily number increases astronomically, doesn't it?

I think we as recreationals need to stop blaming everything and everyone else, and clean up our own house, before launching these campaigns to stop commercial efforts. They are also feeling the pinch, and are monitored much more closely and accurately than you could ever imagine. The penalties are vastly different as well, the comm has much more to lose. They also are not as dumb as one might think, they realize that if they catch all of a species, they will be unemployed quite quickly. I do disagree with many commercial methods, like seining and especially midwater trawlers. Sure dragging has its problems, however there is ground gear being developed in many fisheries which will cut bycatch even further than the mesh sizes alone. I would like to see a reduction of the number of comm boats working, but feel we should also heavily be curtailed in the rec sector right along with them to insure the future of our fish stocks. Dragging is necessary to keep our fishing industry alive, rod and reel efforts would not even come close to getting what we need, and would increase our reliance on yet another imported product. People other than recreational fisherman do not care where their fish came from, they want it pre packaged at a cheap price, or on their plate in a timely and cheap fashion...

We all ned to shoulder the burden of rebuilding our stocks, as we will continue to be curtailed right alongside the comms. We should be banding together to get better science and management programs for all our benfits, not fighting each other, pointing fingers, and even infighting amongst ourselves, with the splitting of many recreational groups monies and efforts so obvious today....Our fisheries are in trouble from other problems, man made and natural as well, without furthering the void in the two major players relationships with the uninformed and ill thought out agendas of so many people today.....

CaptDom · 03-08-2008, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob & Mag

As far as numbers being caught and recording them, follow a dragger after he hauls the net and ask if those floating fish are being counted?

Oh, and not to pick on you, Bob, but dead fluke don't float.....

CaptDom · 03-08-2008, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PG

"Even tho Commercials are allowed to keep 14", they don't necessarily.......most opt to keep fishing for the larger fish to meet their quotas, as they bring higher $$ at the market than the 14" fish."

Does this mean they will throw back smaller fish for larger ones?

Rec guys can not cull-- why should the Com guys be allowed to.

Hi-grading is illegal, which is the correct term here....Man there is an awful lot to address in this thread.

Scup · 03-09-2008, 04:50 AM

Since, I never known Capt Dom to err, I went over my log books to see if I had been filling them out right. I have only held a commercial CT finfish license for thirty years, so one would think I would know what I am doing when it comes to filling out logbooks which have been around now for about ten years, more or less. Capt Dom's statement about reporting discarded fish at sea was my focal point. My first error came about because on my lobster catch report the DEP clearly states do not record released lobsters, which of course, makes sense. If one returns a live lobster to the sea, the environment remains exactly the same as if one never put to sea as nothing was damaged or changed. I allowed this common sense statement to carry over into my scup pot fishery. When pot fishing, I would grab the half dozen or so keeper porgies out of the pot and flip the pot over as quickly as I could so everything else (except spider crabs of course) could swim away. I assumed the DEP would not want to know about the small porgies that swam away since once again nothing was damaged or harmed. The by-catch that dies from the pot fishery is just about zero. However, after carefully looking at my log book, it appears that I am wrong again and as usual Capt Dom is right again. The third thumbnail is a species code list for my logbook entry. Simple enough to understand. The first thumbnail contains a Catch disposition Code List for which the code 90402 clearly indicates Released or Discarded at sea as a possible entry, so Capt Dom is right. The middle thumbnail is an actual log page that has to be filled out. Note that for the bottom section tittled End-Of-Trip Landing Record the entry (next to the last column) "Pounds Sold/Kept" is a rather obvious entry. But think about this; how could a catch disposition of 90402 ever be enter if there is an entry under Pounds Sold/Kept? Should you discard or release something you cannot sell or keep it. From a practical standpoint I think the DEP really does want know if a dragger dumps 2000 pounds of anything at sea so to be legal he should enter zero under Pounds Sold/Kept and enter the appropriate code of 90402. However, this still does not indicate what got tossed over the side as the entry is zero. I look at it this way, the DEP has had ten years to look over my log entries, and several times they have called me to question some entries but never anything about 90402. If they start to require entries of everything tossed back, the men in white coats are going to come for me as I enter 150 pounds, disposition code 90402, for species code CRNS (spider crabs).
Capt Dom, it is getting to be a little bit too much for me to row out the EEZ zone any more.

Bob & Mag · 03-09-2008, 06:40 AM

Sorry but where the hell are they getting 73% rec kill for stripers?? Throwing numbers out like this without any backup information is not impressive.
Even the CT DEP said that rec kills on released fluke, at last years fluke meeting, was 1 in 25 fish released would die. That is 4 %.
Yes fish will sink and you're telling me they don't pick and throw them overboard. You're blind if you don't see the waste.
I will agree to one thing, that saltwater licensing will be making a big difference. I believe it will be found just where the money in this industry is being spent and hopefully percentage of the allowed catch will be reallocated.

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