CaptDom

Hi Bob,

I am certainly not blind. I merely wanted to point out to you that it is impossible to follow a dragger and count his fluke bycatch floating. They do not float, ever. I do not agree with all dragging practices, but the fluke draggers are very clean in overall terms due to the short tows and limited effort in overall terms to the summer flounder.

The striper numbers are very much real. What you are not factoring in here is the number of commercail fisherman(licensed) that fish, vs. the numbers of recreational fisherman that fish. The amount of stripers killed is an easy one to determine, due to the severe restrictions of the commercial fleet has endured since the re opening. I would like you to please read a bit of information on this following pdf. It is short, and explains the numbers I quoted to you:

http://www.asmfc.org/speciesDocument...iesprofile.pdf

You are not alone in many of your assumptions, the entire recreational fleet is blind to the issues at hand, as the common problem is the recreational numbers are estimated, and typically they numbers error in the recreational favor, not the opposite, as all the poaching(unlicensed recreational catch that is sold black market, or plain old poaching of shorts and daily limit overages not reported) skews the numbers quite a bit from plain erroneous data.

The data collection and assumptions made to actual stock numbers is a very real problem, but I believe the commercial numbers are far, far more accurate than the recreational numbers.

The saltwater license would help out immensely to getting these numbers more accurate, and potentially better the percieved gap in the TAC of the two user groups. It would definitely help in getting the recreationals real world dollar figures down on paper, and become impossible to ignore once factoring in of the economic impact recreational saltwater anglers represent!

Remember I am not advocating any removal of an entire user group from any fishry, not commercial dragging or fishing in general. When and if the species are accurately monitored, then I will change my line. I do this for a living, and am a very well educated fisherman, besides being intimately curious by nature. I simply do not post and ideas or opinions that I have not researched to the utmost of my capabilities.

Again I am not taking a shot at anyone here, merely reporting cold hard facts as they pertain to these types of discussions.


Think about this: If commercial efforts were to be halted, it would certainly help me out in terms of my full time fishing, which is in the recreational sector. If no one could get their fish from a local source, they would need to charter me to ever eat alot of the species they like on a fresh basis....

In addition, there would be nowhere for the pin hookers if left in the fishery to sell their catch, as the average consumer would just buy the frozen crap available from the rest of the world. The percentage of imported fish already far outdistances the domestic product consumed here in the US. The small fish houses would go under with no competitive local resource to tap into....

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

Scup

Bob and Mag,

Your numbers are probably questionable as well. Connecticut, is a non commercial state as far as striped bass are concerned. I do catch quite a few bass each year, but I am going out as recreational fisherman, not a commercial fisherman. I think what may have you upset is the horrible flick we saw concerning massive seining operations on the outer banks. Even our local neighboring states that allow commercial striper fishing have to tag the fish they bring into CT and have strict guidelines and quotas to follow. A Connecticut wholesaler cannot accept an untagged bass. That 73% number is going to go all over the place depending on what state we are talking about. Here in Connecticut there is nothing that I know of that we can do about the questionable laws our southern neighbors have. As far as only one fluke in 25 not making it when tossed back, well I think that is a low number as well. I would wonder how the DEP came up with that number? A pin fisherman is basically a rod reel guy anyway so it simply does not matter to the fluke being tossed back who caught him. The mortality rate is not determined by who caught the fish, but by the method used to catch the fish. This is where the commercial guys get into trouble with drag operations and gill nets as no one is going to argue with you over the mortality rate here. However, the statement made that rod and reel people cannot keep the commercial industry going is also very true too.

CaptDom

Correct, think of these highly migratory species in a coastwide sense, but also think about this: every study done on summer caught striped bass shows a very, very high mortality rate for released fish. Commercial fisherman are not out there for fun, they are out there to get there quota and stop. I have seen firsthand what the recreational fleet kills when fishing clam bellies...maybe not a popular method where you are, but elsewhere it is intense. The shorties float up almost within the half hour, more the longer you stay and watch...countless others die hours or days later that get eaten very, very quickly. Check this quick thread out on a very good indicator as to eventual release mortality from summer vs, winter caught striped bass: Striped Bass Hooking Mortality and Physiological Responses of Striped Bass Caught in Freshwater and Held in Live-Release Tubes

I wish that I could get more people to delve further into our fisheries and become a bit more educated so that these discussions could focus on real world thoughts for solutions to our plight, rather than me having to deal with the mis information rampant in the recreational fisheries......Please don't take that as criticism of anyone individual, again think coastwide and angler intensive....

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

CaptDom

Now gill nets is a whole nother story. They should be wiped out immediately and with impunity. A very destructive fishing method unless fishing for bunker or small baitfish with very small mesh. Even responsible gillers who stay at their gear and tend it quickly kill far too many other creatures when fishing with larger gill sizes, and alot of gillers do not become vigilant.

Roller gear is very destructive to ocean bottom in some fisheries, but not in all. Bottom draggers do not typically run over areas where they are going to hang a net. many fish can simply get out of the way in many dragging operations, especially the larger fish like dolphin, whales, and shark...

Purse seining for anything other than menhaden should be stopped altogether, and the menhaden reduction fishery should be wiped out as well. Mid water trawling, don't even think for a scond it is not the most destructive force in the ocean in impact terms fisheries wide....

Potting is a clean form of fishing, but has its abuses as well, and also creates difficulties in that if pot effort were to be increased, the recreational fleet would be shut out of many areas draggers couln't even think of fishing, due to all the gear interference...

Pin Hookers are a very clean form of commercial fishing, but alas the dollars and cents(and sense) of this world mandates that we keep up with the rest of the world in order to not become economically beholden to others for our fish needs....the rest of the world would get an even larger share of the pie, and force all of the pin hookers out eventually as well......We must focus on protectiong and flourishment of or fish here in US waters, instead of fighting about who gets what.....
Long Line gear should be outlawed forever, of any kind, trot lines maybe they are okay, no real data to prove otherwise.

Spearfishing, very clean, but cmon, lets be realistic....

Where does that leave us other than with the current method of dragging and pin hooking? We should be focusing a cooperative effort between AQUACULTURE and the commercial industry, but currently they have different practices and philosophies that do not jive.

Think a bit about the overall commercial fishing community, and how small it is in comparison to the recreatuional sector, both legal responsible recs, as well as the pirates out there, then refactor your own estimates based on a multiplication factor of say jus your daily catch, and release mortality in terms of the above mentioned rec sector..... Go much higher on your release mortality, as many of these fish die well after you have stopped your efforts and gone home.

I hope you guys become a bit more involved, because the charter fleet is your only voice at the local and federal levels. The average rec guy could care less about fisheries meetings and fisheries study.

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

CaptDom

Scup, I forgot that you fish from the small boat only these days. I would like to take you out fishing this summer on one of my off days, just the two of us. I would like to hear more of your thoughts and experiences, I know I could learn some, and we would of course have fun whether we catch or not. I would like to hear more of your great experiences over the years, as I admittedly do not know much about the earlier years from a real world perspective, only what I read....Let me know if you are interested.

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

tunaless

Dom,

Point on. I have been involved in just about all the fishery's you mentioned in one of your post (granted many yrs ago), and the truth of the matter is with the exception of trap (weir), fish pot, and pinnhooking... there is just to much bycatch. I struggle during bass season in mass, netting bunker, and having to pick short bass out of the net..


On the data point, It befuddles me why there is not a rec log by each boat (I fish 90% Rec). I just did my renewal online for my freshwater license, what would be the deal if they added a few dollars and it became a dual license (save the rebuttal about fishing in other states).

Lastly, we stay within the 3 mile curve. Last yrs the coasties were patroling the area from sw ledge thru the sub buoy and nailing guys mainly in the bass issue.


The sad thing is technology could bring all this data together pretty quickly.

tight lines, wife is heading to a play with the kids, I think I need to go spend some money on more tuna gear.

CaptDom

I could not agree more. Especially about more tuna gear

I had nothing to do yesterday, so sorry for the long winded responses, but hey, thats what a chat site is about, and I was complaining about no fisheries issues to discuss just yeaterday morning, LOL

Good luck this season, hope to see you out there!!

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

Scup

Capt Dom,

I am interested, but fuel is just too expensive now to use in order to have a chat even if it is done while fishing. Always had problems accepting an offer. However, if you want to chat, and do not mind wiping off a bow thwart that my pet gull (foghorn) craped on, we could row out for some clams. Do not think I could add to your knowledge base since things were just a whole lot simpler back when I was kid. Was always a marsh rat, and never owned a ride over 19 feet and never even liked a ride that big. There is no doubt in my mind, that after reading your posts, you are the most well educated fisherman, in this form. You must spend hour upon hour reading material from all sources to improved your knowledge base and you are out there seeing and understanding what is happening. Regulations have really gotten out of hand for both the recreational and commercial communities. Regulations are necessary, but what we now have is a mess that has everyone up in arms. I hope that one day you sit on marine fishery's regulatory board, entrusted with power, and clean up some of the laws we now have. If just a few of your suggestions were enacted, we would all be better off now.

John_Madison CT

I'm only going to bring this up because it needs to be kept on a front page basis.

Does anyone here trust the recreational catch data compiled by the Fisheries?? Remember, they're using this data to set quota and to "control" the biomass. Many of your opinions on things are based on the understanding or trust that this data is somewhat accurate, but what if it's way way off? What if the Commercial guys catch 90% of the Fluke, would you then trust that the limits being put on us will facilitate any change in the biomass?

Just out of curiosity, how many of you have ever been asked to offer up your daily Fluke catch?

IMHO, this is an extremely important part of the argument.

CaptDom

I know my posts were long winded, but I clearly agree with you wholeheartedly. I fear we all would cringe at the actual real numbers, should the NMFS care to get proper data....

The commercial numbers are pretty accurate, as the industry is monitored, and restricted, beyond belief. The VMS system virtually insures that the boats comings and goins are monitored carefully. If they even slow down to dragging speed in an area, it is registered. The VTRs are filled out every trip, and there are major penalties and stiff fines for falsification. I believe the data on their side is as accurate as the current system allows. THis system is heavily flawed, but that part of it is the most accurate, even if that is a stretch....What else do we have to work with?

As I stated, when and if they get recreational numbers and we find that we do not kill far more even then we are credited for, then I will change my views. Same holds true for the commercial side, but my better than average knowledge of the fluke fishery states this just isnt the casde. The sheer numbers of fluke out there says the comms can't be destroying the fluke fishery as too many people claim...

The mere fact that there is prevelant poaching in every fisherey by recreatrional pirates engaging in poaching of these species and the data is not even included, says my knowledge that 1+1=2 is also pretty sound when figuring the numbers are skewed in our favor, not the other way around.

I agree the system is flawed, but answer me this: How many average joe fluk fisherman have ever lifted a finger to fight for the cause? I know all too many that love to sit and gripe till the fluke retreat to deeper waters every year.....

I am a firm believeer that the stocks will be rebuilt, and am willing to abide by the regulations mandated by the science involved, regardless of how accurate or inaccurate it may be. Recreational fishing is just that, and it is far cheaper for even a well connected and able guy like me to buy my fish from a commercial fisherman.

What if saltwater fishing recreationally was to go the route of freshwater fishing??? Not such an unlikely scenario...Thankfully there are plenty of guys(especially sharkers) who could care less if they ever got to take home even one fish a year....they have the fishing in their blood, and are driven to go fishing, just as I am. I will continue to do my part on the water and off to provide not only a voice to these concerns, but certainly a platform for any junky like me looking to get his fix until they say I cannot. I ain't ever going to get rich doing what I do, but man am I one happy guy..

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com