CaptDom

I think maybe go here and see some facts: http://www.asmfc.org/ click on interstate fisheries management, then Atlantic menhaden.....



You still fail to see my point about fish kills and clean water so.....

Go here http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-1141680.html

HYPOTHETICALLYLet's just say that for arguements sake the bill passes, and no more seining. The let's say also that NO other commercial fisherman net them using other deadly methods( can you say GILL NETS) and of course the recreational sector wants to protect them so they turn to other baits to buy in the local baitshops and do not get unlimited amounts for themselves and their friends; so the menhaden, the great saviors of the Bay are left alone to filter our already incredibly clean and clear Bay. Then let's say the same wacky science Gibson quotes sees another record juvenile pogie(pnut bunker) run, and they all rendezvous up past Providence point and Greenwich bay, etc.........

Any clearer?


I guess I also still don't see any baitshops not carrying fresh pogies this season, so my next question is, where will they get them from???

Nevermind all the political BS and backdoor tactics being attempted by various(nefarious) groups.

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

JayR

Come on Dom.... I'm not claiming there aren't enough pogies in the Atlantic, just not enough near shore and in the bay from the Chessy to here...

Second link is for just a taste of the article and I really don't want to register to read the whole thing. However, that tease of an article has me scratching my head... The author wants us to believe the menhaden that entered the bay depleted all the oxygen and then died, then killed the other marine life??? Did I read that correctly? I would like to see the science behind that statement... I would be more inclined to think they entered waters deplete of oxygen due to a miriad of problems we know exist up and down the coast. I.E. fertilizer and farm effluent run off bringing huge quantities of nitrogen into the water, resulting in massive algea blooms that in turn deplete the oxygen when they die and ferment on the sea floor. If ya could please, copy the whole article here so I may view its contents. I hate to pass judgenment based on the first paragraph but what I did read appeared baseless.

You have more than once mentioned the "incredibly clean and clear Bay". Where is this mystical bay you speak of? It sure can't be Narragansett! The Bay I know of has a large percentage closed to shellfishing and I see "don't eat the fish" signs around Providence.... I don't know about you but I swim in clean water and the upper bay and its brown water is certainly not a place I would consider. Would you? Is that the "incredibly clean and clear bay" of which you speak? If so, you and I have completely different perspectives.

As for the baitshops.... they in their collective efforts don't harvest a percentage of the 1000's of tons Arc goes after and removes. Remember? The harvesters won't even bother fishing if 1000 tons are not available for harvest I sure would like to know the poundage they harvest. I'll wager that they take a magnitude more than everyone else COMBINED.

The needs of the many should outweigh the needs of the few.
Err on the side of caution. It's a very small price, even if the authors of the bill are wrong...

Me thinks you are

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I really don't care what you have to say about me, just as long as you mention my name

GP-TJ

It is amazing to see the water color change as you head north and south in the bay. I come out of Allen's Harbor and heading south from there beyond the Jamestown bridge and I see the water clear as I leave the bay. Get out to Beavertail and it is completely different. Head up the bay and yikes...Brown water.

I am not a scientist. I am a recreational fisherman.

JayR

For an incredibly clean and clear bay, there sure are a lot of areas closed...

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I really don't care what you have to say about me, just as long as you mention my name

CaptDom

You guys are kidding me right?

I think I will stop this debate for now, becasue there is a definite scientific gap in your understandings of marine ecology and water quality.

Turbidity of water has to do with a myriad of factors. Shellfish closures are due to the sediment areas these shellfish lie in, and the fact that the bay used to be very polluted. The"dirt" of the bay has been sitting collecting these contaminents for many years, fellas......Turbidity and quality are two different things. Newport 1st beach was closed many times last year due to water quality, yet the water was Deep Blue and there were bluefin tuna swimming around in it.......

I have aerial views of the bay from the 70's and 80's, and compared to today.......Let's just say you would immediately rescind your comments about the bay and its cleanliness today. Heck, the Prov. River even has holdovers in it once again.....

I do not have a copy of that article from Maine I can post, as it is protected content, but it is the same for any type of fish kill like they had in 1990 there; and yes, they choked out every living thing in Quahog bay, ME and made it a dead zone......Once we fiddled with Mother nature long ago, we opened Pandoras Box. There are many factors at play now that were never considered, and many things done already which can never be changed. But you guys want to just continue screwing with the ecosystems by banning a procedure that has been in place(successfully I might add) for 30 years in our bay????Your arguements are nothing more than sentimental and romantic in my educated opinion. You have yet to procure any science of your own which would indicate this move is warranted, nor have you factored in the issue of what will happen if Ark does not fish i.e what will prevent the pogies from being harvested in other, more damaging methods? Or where all the pogies sold in RI will come from?(sounds to me like its the ole' "not in my backyard, but elsewhere is fine by me)

You still need to educate yoursleves on some basic elements(science) in order to establish any kind of credence to your oppostion at least in my mind, as you have no science to back your arguements, merely your desire to protect some wildlife(which it would not accomplish, due to its life cycle and migration patterns.....). Again, I agree with alot of your points from a conservation perspective, however, your sentiments do not jive with my understanding of this particular ecological controversy.

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

GP-TJ

I don't know if I am "you guys" but I simply made a comment on water color. I didn't say the pogies would clean it up.

I have my own belief on this topic (pogy boat in the bay). It has nothing to do with water quality or the method that they net them.

I would like pogy boats out of the bay. I am not an enviromentalist or a marine scientist. I am a recreational fisherman. I know laws don't get written based upon what I want. I'm not a lawmaker either.

Is it Spring yet?
GP

CaptDom

Didn't mean to offent GP. You chimed in, and I responded in kind.

I'll ask you what you meant by your comment on the water color, then? It seemed to me you implied the color had something to do with the current talk on water cleanliness....

__________________
CAPT. DOM PETRARCA
COASTAL CHARTERS SPORTFISHING
NEWPORT, RI (401)-862-0358
www.coastalcharterssportfishing.com

GP-TJ

The water color is just very different inside the bay than outside. I think it has more to do with temperature and algae bloom than anything else. There is also the factor of water movement and dilution of the algae. Like I said, I'm just a guy who goes fishing.

The calendar says Spring but it feels like Winter.

GP

JayR

Dom, you said you enjoyed discussing this.... Now you sound as though you are getting angry...

You hit the nail on the head and I said as much in my first posts....

I think public sentiment will rule out on this one too.... Right / wrong, commercial interests and the public view.... They all play a role here. Money usually wins out and I think half the state is in some one's pocket. There you know where I stand..... I don't trust DEM to do what is best for all, I expect them to do what's best for the political contributors who are paying to put our elected officials in office.

BTW... I know turbidity and the upper bay is not just stained dirty in color. It stinks! Not a stink like the swamp in my back yard that is ripe with decaying vegetative matter. It smells like a cesspool. Too bad we don't have areal views of the bay in the 1700's.... I think there we would see clean.

The scientific proof that has been presented so far is filled with statements ending in "unlikely". It is a matter of interpretation.... What is unlikely still possesses a possibility. It is in that prose that I think we should err on the side of caution. There is a possibility.....

Pogies in the bait shops??? I could care less. I have not used one for bait in a dozen or more years. I fish eels (which certainly has its own issues) and lures. On the Cape, I rake sand lance.

Just to be sure you know where I stand... I'll state a few beliefs.

1. The bay would be a better place with ARC not taking the menhaden Recreational
2. fishing and the tourism it generates would be better with large schools of menhaden not harassed by this big operation. Schools
3. of striped bass would be more likely to stay in the bay longer with a much bigger food supply of very protein rich menhaden. More
4. stripers for a longer period would generate more recreational fishing revenue. Cleaner
5. water? Potentially but not enough for us to notice... but any cleaner is a step in the right direction. Show

me scientific proof I am wrong on ALL accounts and maybe I would consider something less drastic. Maybe....
Mind you.... not scientific theory or hypothesis.... definitive proof....

My heart is certainly the defining consideration here and I will not argue that fact. I don't like the mass harvest of menhaden and therefor I am supporting the ban proposal... It's pretty simple....

We've raped the sea long enough. Time for aquaculture to step up... Just as we've done with commercial hunting of wild game, I would love to see the cease of commercial harvests of wild fish. At least to the extent of nets and fish traps.... Hook and line only.

ARC is a small operation and is of a minimal concern economically. Lobsterman and bait.... they survived to loss of the horseshoe crab and will weather this as well...

I'll go register to read the remainder of that article now.... I wonder what I'll uncover....

One note to leave you with concerning studies and the like....
Figures don't lie, but liars figure!
I don't trust one of the gov't studies...

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I really don't care what you have to say about me, just as long as you mention my name

JayR

So much for reading the remainder of that article... They wanted a credit card

A closer look at the 1st paragraph revealed the DATE!!!!

17 year old articles!!!! Heck, wasn't DDT stil in use back then???!!!! JKOC

Sorry but info and opinions from almost 2 decades ago won't float for me....
Stripers back then were just starting to come back.

I didn't have any white hair then. Heck I HAD hair back then LOL!!!!!

__________________
I really don't care what you have to say about me, just as long as you mention my name